The Power Of Why: AI, Attention And What Makes Us Human - with Dany Valkova

00:00:00: Speaker: Welcome to a very special episode of AI insights, the podcast of the medianet BerlinBrandenburg. I'm the host, Paul Probst, and this is a very special episode today. Not just because we're talking in English, but also we have a guest with a interesting, if not like, very packed background, uh, life journey. And my guest today, she moved with her parents in the nineties from Bulgaria to Australia, studied law and business, and because she had the time at night, she also studied music at night. Then she worked as a DJ and moved to London and all the rest. I'm gonna give the mic to her, to tell her to tell us a little bit more about her journey. Welcome, Dani Thank you so much. What a wonderful intro. I'm so happy to be here. It's nice to have you. So I mentioned already, like quite a journey that you have there. Feel a little bit the details that I left out there about your journey. The whole the different phases of your life that led until this point? Yeah. LED up to us sitting here together today. Exactly. Well, you had a wonderful start there. So I was born in Bulgaria, and I moved to Australia when I was very young with my parents. I'm an only child, so it was just the three of us. And I went on to study law and business, but it didn't quite scratch the itch that I was looking for. And very early on I realised that there was something further to explore, a deeper why that I couldn't find in law and business. But I knew that it had so much potential and so much value in establishing foundations with those degrees. So I didn't want to quit. And instead, instead of subtracting something, I added something. As you mentioned. So I went to music school at night. I learnt how to write music. I developed a really quick network in the music industry really fast at night school, and by the time I graduated from music school, it was my very good fortune that I was also graduating from law and business at the same time. And by that time I already had DJ gigs, I had residencies, I was writing music, I record contract, so the career had already started to. That's all in Australia, that's all in Australia. Yeah. So I graduated, ended up going to the music industry. I was there for nearly seven years, full time touring. I played some of the biggest music festivals in Australia and the clubs and had releases and just learnt so much, so much. What kind of music was it? Electronic music. Electronic music. So I started off sort of in the trance to techno with a little bit of EDM, particularly as the gigs got a little bit bigger. The music festivals got a little bit bigger. As the music industry tends to be start to move, you need to make some commercial allowances for those sort of audiences. So I so ended up splitting my career into two different aliases, one for the more commercial Mainroom sound and one for the underground techno sound. So that way it could appeal to two different markets simultaneously. After about seven years in the music industry, I realized that there was a potential in music and immersive experiences that goes beyond physical presence, and there was a scalability there that I felt could be harnessed, that the music industry was not giving me the opportunity to do that. So I got a one way ticket to London, packed my suitcase, moved to London, registered as a freelancer as soon as I landed, and just started networking. Um, yeah. Wow. How old were you? Uh, I was in my mid twenties at that point. Yeah. Uh, so I moved to London, ended up finding an incredible network of people in London ended up moving into advertising and gaming and immersive technology, originally doing sound design, composition, then moving up into audio direction and really understanding how much potential there is in sensory innovation and how much this platform of virtual worlds was unlocking opportunities for us to harness that transformative power at scale. And that's where I really learnt the ins and outs, not just on technically how it works, but also conceptually how brands capture attention and how much power there is in that. And where are we headed to next once we start to flip the script on that, how we can use some of those tools to do more than just sell products or keep people engaged in certain applications beyond a time that is necessarily healthy to do so. And we're seeing that more and more with a lot of research that's coming out with our relationship to technology. And okay, yeah, we're going into that a little bit later on. Just one thing, because I read that you started your first startup with sixteen already. Yeah, yeah. Is that true? Yeah. So there's a program in Australia. Unfortunately, it's not around anymore, which is such a shame. But it's very similar to Y-combinator Antler. They go out. You don't need to have an idea to get accepted. They go out and look for young Australians that have found a DNA. So you go through this interview process, they see if you have the potential to come on board. And I passed the original. Once you get once you pass the original screening, you get paired up with an angel investor. And I got paired up with a woman who to this day is one of the most influential people in my life. She completely changed what leadership meant to me and how to recognize leadership, how to harness it, what it really meant to show up when things got tough, how to make decisions. In the absence of having access to all the information you think you need. How to make decisions that are communicated properly to your team. So she taught me the ins and outs of leadership at a very young age. I ended up in that capacity leading a team of twelve with sixteen. Yeah. That's amazing. So I had a team of twelve at the time. Again, my I was playing in a band at sixteen. I was struggling with my angel investor. Yeah, but my angel investor was a huge part in that. So she really taught me a lot about team management. But I wanted to realize I wanted to see the world. I didn't want to go into entrepreneurship full time at that point. I wanted to travel and really understand what's the why at the core. Because I saw really early on that when it comes to startups, you need to have your heart and soul into the mission, not necessarily the product, because that can change. But the mission was the mission behind what you're building. And I needed to see the world before I could really feel. What is the mission I'm willing to to really back. I mean, that is a good starting point. Asking why for things and not just how can I be very rich and very fast, but also like, think about why is that important to me? And then why could it be important to others, to society? And that seems a little bit, a little bit the, the, the thing that connects all these dots, the why in between all those different phases for you. Right. Absolutely. And I think not just for me but for everybody. We meander through our lives and we have different chapters. Sometimes we travel, sometimes we don't. Sometimes we have career pivots and sometimes we don't. But there is an underlying why. And particularly as technology starts, technology starts to augment how we lead our careers. I believe understanding our deep why will be more important for individuals in the next phase of humanity more than ever. So really understanding. Being honest with yourself, asking what is the why? Why do I show up every day and let the how change over time? The how will change it is inevitable and so will the what. But be very clear on what your why is. I think that is a super interesting point for times when technology gets so huge and so powerful to know why we're doing, why we're working with it, what's the what's the target? Where are we going with this and what's in it for me, and why does it make me happy, feel better, or make me a better person or whatever? It is super interesting. Um, I mean, since we're an AI podcast, the question is when? When did AI first cross your path? So was that in London when you worked for the studio? That was a unit. Unit. Unit? Yeah, yeah. My first interactions with AI were AI chatbots, and what I found particularly intriguing at that point was how quickly the users of the chatbot navigated away from its original intentionality. So the chatbot was meant for customer service, but very quickly, those conversations became something of a more personal nature and became almost an extrapolation of companionship. And it happened incredibly quickly. All right. So that was that was when twenty sixteen, twenty seventeen, twenty sixteen already? Yeah. So a long time before everybody got into AI because of ChatGPT. Yeah. Chatbots were not a thing really very early. It was just they were really stupid also. Yes, exactly. But they were. And it was just for customer service. It was meant for asking some questions if you're having issues, some FAQs essentially for products. But still, there was this meandering away from intentionality, which to me just immediately was a signal that our relationship to AI won't be just as a tool, but will be looking for a mirror of ourselves. Mhm. So you saw that in the chats, um, that you like supervised or something. Yeah. Yeah. Just the type of questions that were coming through. They weren't just asking questions about how to use a product or what's the return policy or whatever. It became deeper than that. Okay. Which probably ended pretty soon because the answers were. Yeah. There was no answer or actually no answer at all because you had like probably a way like either yes or no, probably answers or something like that. Exactly. Okay. Exactly. I mean, this change. But the desire was there. Yeah. Okay. And in unit nine, you worked as a sound engineer? No. What? What did you do there? So I started off that way, but I became head of audio. So that was my department to look after. That included looking at how audio will be used in a strategic sense. Where is technology going with audio? How can we really push technology in terms of sound music, original composition, audio, AI? What are the processes in the systems that come into play with that? What I love about that department and audio in general, is it actually makes touch points with so many different departments. It's the animation department is also affected by audio, because we need to have certain sound design that's synced to animation. UX is incredibly important when it comes to audio. What are different sounds when when a user is going through a user flow? Where do we want them to linger longer and how do we express that through sound? Where do we need gaps? Where silence really key to make sure that the user has space, both sonically but also mentally to read, to interpret information? How it also works for music, right? Exactly. I mean, you need those breaks. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Silence is the most undervalued tool in sound. It is. The most powerful tool is being very strategic with where you place silence. I mean, one app that I use that works a lot with sound, and it gives me joy when I hear certain sounds. Is Duolingo, and they're doing it really good. So every time I finish like, ching ching ching, I am like, okay, I did it maybe one more time. So they were really good with with the with the sound design I think. So they worked with so especially for um, games or like it was all sorts anything to do with interactive and immersive tech. Sometimes it's games, sometimes it's VR, augmented reality, all sorts of different things. As long as there's interactivity and there's some level of sensory immersion, then sound would play a key factor there. But that taught me a lot about user flows, about UX. The importance of gamification like you just mentioned. Storytelling is a huge one, and storytelling isn't just in the experience or in games. Storytelling begins even with the font choices or the color choices on a landing screen. Like, everything comes down to storytelling. There's so much psychology that is utilized when we think about color. Light animation, motion design, and audio is just another tool in that incredibly powerful toolbox. Yeah, that's super interesting. I mean, if you design a website and think about what kind of mood you want to have when the user visits it, and not just like have this blank white page. So you work with with really big brands there like Google and Meta. That's right. Um, I mean big brands that really want to grab the attention, uh, on the time of the users as much as they can. And if I understood it correctly in, in our conversation before that, uh, recording, you said like that There was a misalignment then somehow with what the bigger brands wanted from the users and what was what you wanted actually to do with this and how to work with sound and light, maybe. So what was that moment where you said, okay, this is this is not for me. So when you stopped working for unit nine or so, at that point, it became apparent to me just how much power there is in sensory innovation and where that's headed. And there's a particular quote that always comes to mind with this. Uh, the same fire that keeps you warm in winter is the same fire that can burn you alive. The tool was powerful. It is our utilization of it that determines the outcome. There is absolutely a place for sensory innovation when it comes to how big brands are using it, and absolutely has a role to play. But back to that. Why? That why at the core for me was taking those tools and using it to help people reach their potential. I saw what's possible with those tools. I saw how much attention we can control through immersive technology and sensory design. I saw how much emotional resonance there there is, and how much we can help people if we just apply it for the right purpose. And I wanted to take everything that I've learned and flip the script on it, and instead of using it to direct attention to for one purpose, I wanted it to direct attention, to help people feel their best, which is not always the case for the content. Bigger social media platforms create or push. Right? I mean, there's so much noise coming your way to grab your attention and keep you on the platform to distract you from yourself and from the things around you. And that's probably also like a reason. Maybe you thought, okay, maybe it's time for me to start something new. Yeah. The actually that you hit the nail on the head with distract you from yourself. We are so inundated with content, and those apps are designed to keep us scrolling, keep us taking more in consuming more content. The amount of sounds, lights, colors, the saturation, everything is intentional to keep you in these apps, but that is just a distraction. And often it's a we turn to it as an alleviation of some sort of inner turmoil and something that's causing us to not feel our best. But really turning inwards and finding that turning that attention inwards and finding that stillness and silence within is becoming more and more difficult in today's world. So even though there's all of these apps that exist around us that are constantly transforming how we work, the tools we use, the output that we create, where are the tools that are transforming us within after, afterwards? When you when you had this moment, this pivot moment where you said, okay, I don't want to contribute to that anymore. And also maybe the point where you saw what AI also can do to push those, um, to this, these ideas or these, um, so for the bigger brands to utilize AI even more to personalize the experience that you're having to get your attention even more, I think that's probably a thing that AI can do, because it can personalize content so much more to the individual consumer or, um, yeah, whatever you want to call it. But most of the time it's a consumer because they want to sell things. They said, okay, I'm out, I need to do something new. And you found it. Your next company. Yeah. What is that? Yeah. So I found it. Gosia And the whole mission behind Garcia is to turn all of the outside noise into inner silence. And it's come from many years working with consumer brands, working in so many different fields all the way from physical exertion when I was deejaying to virtual immersion when I worked in immersive technology. Now I'm looking at inner immersion, what's going on inside, and how do we use all the tools through all of those different phases in my life, to be able to help us go through that inner transformation? Mhm. Uh, it is a time of great change, and it is so tempting for us to jump into these apps and have this relationship with technology that is either passive consumption or we're creating something just for the sake of more, more content, right, without any substance behind it. And my goal with Gosia and the mission behind it is to turn both of those on on their sides and flip them upside down. How do we go from all of the external noise, and how do we distill that slowly over time into inner silence and inner stillness? Because silence feels uncomfortable in this world especially, we are given opportunity after opportunity to feel any moment of silence with more noise. So how do we find comfort in silence? So that moment where you wait for the elevator to come and you think, what can I do now? You just take out your mobile? Yes. And destroy that silence because you can't bear it anymore. Yeah. What's really ironic is we talk about AI helping us with creativity and finding creative flow and whatnot. But that creativity is born in stillness. We hear our creativity loudest when we're in silence. Inner silence. So when you create songs. Yes, yes. Those were. Those are when inspiring ideas come to us, when we give ourselves freedom to be quiet and give ourselves freedom to be bored. And boredom is another thing that we have lost the potential and lost the ability to sit with. Now, when you're when you have like chatbots that really work now, um, you can really skip this moment of sitting down, go into your thoughts, think through stuff. You can just pitch a random quick idea to a chatbot and then see what it makes out of it, and then maybe use that already because you're lazy. Or maybe if you put a little more effort into that, you can refine it and then make something out of it that maybe is not as much as AI. Slop, which is the new term for everything comes out of the generative AI video stuff, sensaura and things. So I get this point where the silence is super important and where I makes it so much harder for us to to find this silence and not fill it with something because we're afraid of being alone with our thoughts? Yes, exactly. How do you use AI in your app and how does it really work? I really don't want to know how the how the app works. It's an app. Yeah it is. So how does it work? So the AI component comes in the personalization. So we assess different emotional sentiment and emotional analysis on how you're doing day to day. And we're able to translate that into different audio and visual experiences. And the goal is to offer people a tool that they can return to every single day and over time, help them and guide them to sit better with stillness and recapture their attention. So the AI component is in the analysis aspect of it. It is not in the generation of the outcome. So all of the audio, all of the music is done by people. It is done by composers. It is not AI generated audio. All of the visuals are coded line by line, by creative developers that have dedicated their entire careers into learning how visuals work on mobile devices. We are not putting any of that into AI, Jen. That is all done by human ingenuity and human creativity. Okay, so you have the assets already. And then through AI analysis analysis you find what what's fits perfect to the to the user. Essentially yes. Yeah. Yeah. And if I can imagine the journey like I wake up in the morning, I have like fixed timing for that. I say okay every morning at ten a m after my smoothie, um, I use the app for ten minutes or hours or something. Okay. Exactly. It's all about building daily rituals and daily habits, which is another thing that as we move into our frantic world, we've lost connection with. So what's the daily ritual? That's just for me, that has compounding effects. So that ten minute investment every single day for me to help me before I start looking at any screens, help me get in the right mindset that will compound over time. We keep coming back to it. Over time, the experiences get more adaptive to you. There's an interactivity component to it, which also becomes more difficult with time as well. So we keep training you to sit with that discomfort almost, and that inner silence longer and longer over time. Mhm. Okay. I mean that would be a journey for me because I'm the person that wakes up in the morning, then grabs the phone and then checks emails and slack and then maybe ten minutes Instagram, which I regret afterwards of course, because I didn't learn anything new. I was just, um, not the best way to get into the day. And I always wanted to, like, start the day with journaling or something like that that I never did it before. So to really get people, I mean, this is the same with Duolingo, right? I mean, they're nudging you, um, on my app is like, it's it's had this big widget and it looks at me, it's like, surely don't want to learn now. So I feel I feel a little bit of pressure, but that's in a good way for me, because I wouldn't do it if I if I wouldn't be nudged by the app. So, um, your idea is to how do you remind the people to, to use the app to, to put it into their daily routines? Yeah. I mean, at the moment, the hardest part, of course, of course. But routines take a while to build, like anything, like running, like exercise. Uh, at the beginning it's always difficult because anytime we want to build a routine, your body is like, well, actually, I'm kind of happy with the habit I already had. Why do I why do we need to change? Right? So there is that sense of pushing through the discomfort, but that's part of it, right? Anything like learning a new language or meditating or doing anything for your health will take a little bit of there will be friction at the beginning. That's inevitable. And in fact, it's healthy. And our goal is to keep that friction alive even when you're using it every day. So by building in the difficulty curvature, by continuing to challenge you over long periods of time, because that challenge is where real growth happens, growth doesn't happen inside comfort zones. That's I think that's also a thing in AI. It makes so many things easier for you. So there's less friction. But as you said, like from this friction ideas come or I don't know, something something new starts or you think harder about stuff like that. And with your app, I mean you compete with the easiest way to deal with my day just to consume things and let things from outside distract me because like Instagram, these are I mean, TikTok for me. I can't handle TikTok, really. I would sit there for that's why it's not on my phone. I would sit there for two hours, probably just like doing this, and afterwards I feel bad. And but it's it's so easy because I don't have to do anything. And I wonder if AI makes people even more lazy. And so it's it's even harder to to get them to. Use their silence. The silent moments and use their own brains. Yeah, but I mean, we've seen this happen in so many different industries. Think about the food industry. We had a whole part of humanity was all home cooked meals, and then we had huge industrialized fast food. That doesn't mean that people don't have home cooked meals anymore, or that there isn't a value in home cooked meals just because you can go get a packet of chips. That's true. But I mean, if you look into America, fast food country, I mean, they're struggling with their fast food, right? And I see, of course, for myself is like, if I don't have the time or if I just cook for myself, it's like, oh, for myself, I don't know, I just grab this, I don't know, frozen tagliatelle from Aldi and just put it in a pan. I have to admit, I do this from time to time. Um, but yeah, I mean, that's that's a super important goal to keep people busy with silence with themselves. Um, at which state are you with the app right now? So we're in closed testing at the moment. Um, so we have a closed group of testers. We also have a waitlist that's live, which is growing daily just through word of mouth and organic growth, which is really exciting. Uh, and get on the waitlist. Yeah, it's on the website. Uh, but yeah, so at the moment we really want to hone in on what are these emotional triggers that are critical for us to drive our personalization engine. What are the data points that are most critical to this, uh, data loop? And with that comes two, two things come to mind. The first one is the importance of AI ethics. When we work with anything to do with psychology, with emotions, with health, there is a huge responsibility on the ethical use of that data points. So that's something that's really important to us. Um, and secondly, as a human species, we tend to love the idea of something external to us, healing us. That's why we take a pill to feel better. Um, and we look for these quick fixes, like you were saying, with the fast food, if I feel bored, there's a quick fix there. So the second part of that is finding the balance between making the app engaging enough so that it does have enough of a pull and a driver for people to come to every day, but not so engaging that that becomes the driver itself. It's a thin line, probably. Yeah, it is, and it changes from person to person. And the more that the app is used, the more that that line shifts as well. So it's not something that's written in cement, it's written in sand and it shifts with the waves. That's nice. Um, is it is the app for special people or is it like, what are you? Is it for everyone? So at the moment we're starting with the neurodivergent community. The need there is urgent. It's massive. And the way that society is heading, especially with our consumption of technology, this is a group that absolutely the world is not is not built. Um, and I don't want us to continue down this road and leave such a huge part and such a valuable part of our community behind, just because our relationship with technology is becoming more and more fast paced, and there's more opportunities for things to grab our attention and to get further and further away from feeling grounded. Um, and from the ethic part, is that also the idea that you don't generate content that you put out to the user, but you have like those fixed assets because, I mean, what we learned over the last month that a lot of people using chatbots like ChatGPT for psychedelic analysis or just talks when they're feeling bad. And we have a couple of stories where it really went bad. Right. I mean, we have suicides there of young people committing suicide. Finding ways to ask the AI, how can I do it the best way? Um, also, I read this one story about an older man who had a talk with a chatbot. I think it was. Or it was a chatbot for meta, but it was in cooperation with the Kardashians. And he was he was actually married, but he had a talk with that chatbot, and they flirted and flirted with him. And the chatbot, I call it. She asked him if he doesn't want to visit her in New York. And he's like, yeah, why not? And and then the chatbot a if we if we're gonna see each other, then would you like me to kiss you on the mouth? Or rather, a hug? How intimate do you want that? So that's the conversation it was in the New York Times, the, the the article about this incident. And then the man said, okay, to his wife, I'm going to see my friend over there in New York and, um, left off and died on the way because he had an accident at the airport and fell on the ground. It was not the fault of the AI, of course. Uh, but he was so convinced that there is someone to meet, um, that he felt connected to that. He said, I'm going to travel to see that woman. I'm going to. I mean, she gave him an address where you should go to. I mean, there we see how powerful and harmful this can be, because that also, um, the idea behind not generating content that maybe leads into wrong direction because AI is not controllable enough. Yeah. I mean, having all of the assets there, there are multiple reasons why we do the assets. Uh, the first one is that it gives us more control on the final output. And with that control gives us more security, that we can have some visibility of what our customers or consumers see at the end. So there's an ethical standpoint. Beyond that, more conceptually, as we move towards a world where AI will have a greater role to play, I can't help but reflect on, okay, so where is the separation, then, between what makes us human and what makes us machine? And I reflected a lot about on that. And I think to humanity's relationship with creating art as something that sets us apart, we have created cave drawings from the dawn of man. We have tapped and made percussive instruments as a way to build tribes and build communities. Uh, that is something so inherent about being a human being to create art, to play, to engage in play, to make mistakes as well. And I didn't want to create an app that displaced what it means to be a human being at the core, when the whole intention behind Gosia is to bring people back to themselves. There needed to be a human element because that's what made it feel authentic. That's a very great purpose. And to ask ourselves, what, um, are we here for? Um, what do we want to create? What is my talent that I maybe have not discovered yet? Um, comes from that reflection on yourself and from that silence. And not for from somebody or something telling you how to live your life, how to do stuff. So I get this. Um, but do you also think that, on the other hand, because, I mean, there are platforms like Suno where you can create music if you want to call it music. I think it sounds like and I was I mean, that was in the last year, I think was one of the AI apps that blew me away the most, because the kind of singing that comes out of there, uh, let's not talk about the lyrics, but, um, also the instruments. It seemed so powerful to me as one, as a person that played in a rock band back in the days was not good at the guitar, but I tried is now capable of producing music, rock music, or whatever kind of music pretty easily. By just telling the AI how does it sound and what kind of instruments, and maybe also creating the lyrics. Um, what do you think of that? I mean, is that also the same? Can you compare it to painting the caves back then with creating music with AI. Can that work together? It can absolutely work together. I don't think it's a one or the the other. It's just an augmentation of our relationships to art. They can coexist. I think it all depends. It all boils down to intentionality. If you want to create music, you have more options than ever on how to do that. And it's a personal decision on which tools you utilize. If you wanted to pick up and learn the piano tomorrow, you could do that. No one is stopping you. If you wanted to jump in and. But it's that's super hard. That's the friction point, right? I mean, so you have to take the lessons. Yes. Or I tell the AI to play the piano. Yes. So exactly that. How much friction are you happy to take on? And what's your relationship with making mistakes? Because you will make mistakes if you learn an instrument from scratch. It's just part of learning a new skill. Whereas when we displace more and more of the creative process to a machine, the mistakes are on the machine and it feels better. It feels better when we displace mistakes. Um, so we have to find a way to use this technology to make mistakes with it. It depends on the output, really. If you. If you need something, if you need an output for, say, a podcast or whatever, now we have tools available to do that which are frictionless and quick and that's fantastic. And it allows more people to get into content creation or the like, where maybe there would have been greater barriers to entry. And that's wonderful because it gives people a platform to express themselves in ways that they didn't have access to before, but that can coexist with any kind of art, whether it's painting, uh, versus graphic design versus AI gen art, they all it's just a spectrum. And each case by case, it depends on where we want to sit on the spectrum. One day you might want to create art from scratch, just for the pure love of creating something by hand and seeing that part of yourself be expressed, and other times you need art for a purpose, for a social media post, for a podcast, for a thumbnail, whatever it is, and you have the tools to do that quickly so that you can get that out there and focus on something that requires your attention in more, in more detail. So we'll just have more tools in our toolbox, and we need to be more deliberate and more precise and purposeful with which tool is appropriate, when and maybe then we come back to the question from the beginning, why? Why do I create this? Exactly what do I want to say with this? Exactly? And not just for the sake, because I can. Yes. I mean, and that's that's probably for the video side, all the video that just comes out because. Yeah. Now, uh, a horse with wings flies to the moon and then explodes into a rocket or whatever. And then you can do this now, but why? But if there's a story to be told, then so be it. It's all the purpose. If you've got a nice story for that. And on the music side is there is on Spotify, there are AI bands that have hundreds of thousands of listeners, more than, I don't know, German rock bands here, and they're making money with that. What do you think of that? Yeah, I mean, the music side particularly is really close to my heart because I have seen and I've been part of artists that have dedicated their entire lives to mastering an instrument, mastering a certain genre production wise, and they're seeing now a machine replicate what it took them decades to learn. And they're being uploaded and they're getting streaming and they're getting profit, and they're getting revenue from that. And you can't help but as an artist think, what's the point? And that's a really dangerous place for us to be as humans to think, what's the point if a machine can do it? What is the point? Because it brings to the forefront such existentialism. And that's where I think we really need to sit down and decide what is most important to me. Is it just the output, or is there something in the process of creation that has its own merits and it has its own values, and it's not just about the revenue streams. Do you see any liability with the big companies like Spotify or Meta, or the platforms that create this stuff? What do you what do you expect them to do to handle the things? Great question. So YouTube's already started, uh, making waves in this, uh, anything that's detected with having substantially being created by AI will be demonetized. So in that way, that content will still live on the platform. It still has a place, but it's not making any revenue anymore. So for content creators that are making it their life and it's their living to make content and they're doing it without the use of AI, they can continue to do that and they'll rise to the top and their content will be able to be, um, revenue generated. So I can see that particular model being utilized across other platforms as well. If it's majority AI detected, then it can still host it. We won't ban it, but it will be demonetized. So if you like, use those irks the the avatars, uh, as your, um, creator that you put on the platform and that is fully generated, then you don't get any revenue from YouTube. But if you use AI tools to enhance your videos or your music, that's that is fine. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. Yeah. Sounds like a good way. But probably also also a thin line to okay. How much is too much AI in that video and and where is it still. Okay. And and I think Spotify is doing nothing so far as I learned or I mean, if you get the streams, you get the streams, you get the streams, but it will reach a point where that discussion will have to happen. Alternatively, new platforms will emerge and they their UGC will be, uh, you come to our platform because it's all created by we don't accept any AI content creation. So there may be a rise in platforms that are more, um, geared towards only human created art. Um, probably. I mean, that's probably also the question or the talk that I have for a lot of friends. If we all go back to a state where handcrafted things, um, things from millions of piano lessons, created stuff is more valuable and will draw people's attention to that because they're overwhelmed by all this polished, um. Often the same stuff created by AI? Absolutely. The value placed on human created anything, be it art, music will absolutely, exponentially grow in value because it will become more scarce. Do you think that? I mean, because that's also a thing that I'm thinking about because the generation that grows up now is so used to do this kind of content to the tools. And I'm, I'm somehow the generation that I mean, my first computer was a three, uh, I mean, windows ninety five, that was my first computer that I had even started with DOS. So I had the whole transition from, come on, this image has to load forever just to see it. And now I can download one hundred million images in a minute or whatever. Um, so I can relate somehow to, to the technology. But if you're now fourteen or something, do you really, um, separate the, the AI stuff from the human stuff? Or maybe you don't care at all, because if it's good, it's good, so why bother? I wonder if that is a shift that also can happen, and maybe not really backwards to oh, this is a person that's put a lot of work and effort into this video, creating it, and it's cool. Um, that's why I like it. But it could also be like, this video is really, really good and funny and I like it too. So I wonder if we could come to a world where people just don't care. Um, I think you really touched it when you said, why bother? Yeah, I think that's the key there. Why bother? Why bother creating it? If something can be done faster, cheaper? There has to be another reason, another value in its creation that goes beyond just the final output. Why bother? And with the younger generation, we. We have a very strong responsibility to teach them that it is not just about more output, more work, more productivity. Do it faster, do it quicker, do it perfect. There's something in the process itself that carries value and that's why they should bother. So the moment they start creating stuff themselves, they have maybe a different view on the content they consume also. Exactly. And if you I mean, if we're we are right there looking ahead and to the future. Where do you see AI going? Um, and our interaction with it. Yeah. I think we are right at a pinnacle moment in history where our relationship with AI is shifting away from getting answers. In the future, it'll be less about having all the answers, because we can just get them immediately and more about what is the question. So in the next few years, I see a shift where the importance of asking the right question will be greater than ever, and we will be teaching the younger generation as well on how to ask the right questions. Uh, I couldn't have imagined a better ending or a last last words for this podcast. I think, um, the right ask the right question. This is today also important if you're using AI, right? I mean, if you're if you're prompt or your question is bad, the answer is bad. And and this good question, the inner question why and the question to your interaction with the AI is important. So I think this is also really good lesson we can learn if you can imagine. So one last question. If you can imagine your perfect AI world, could you like draw it for us? Yeah, the perfect AI world is one where AI is our companion. It's our tool, but it helps spotlight the best parts of humanity. Best parts of what makes us human. And those are the parts that no computer can ever replicate. That's our emotional intelligence is the way that we see another human being through down to their core. And the more that we look within, the more we can see the people around us deeper and deeper. And that is something no machine will ever be able to replicate. Awesome. Um, in our last podcast, last episode, we also had, um, the the point where we talked about how AI can make us more human. So also an episode that maybe you can watch or listen to. Danny, thank you so much for this super interesting talk. It was a real pleasure. Thank you. Thank you so much. Insightful. Um, and yeah, I wish you all the best for Gogia and see you around. Thank you so much for having me. This was such a wonderful conversation. Thank you. Thank you. Bye.